I gruppi della nord si sciolgono

[RobCouto]

A mio modesto avviso, Skorpius: si spiega che quello che si richiede è illegale, dopodiché si commenta, anche spietatamente, la "sagacia" di chi ha scritto quel brano (mi rifiuto di chiamarlo "comunicato" perché mancano le premesse per considerarlo tale).

[Matita]

sembra che l'ironia non si possa usare..

boh , m'era parso.

Ah ecco , solo in determinate occasioni. Scienziati , alchimisti , portaborse,ritardatari....

[Bill Kelso]

...combattere una legge chiedendone la disapplicazione NON è da persona di destra, neanche in questo riescono ad essere coerenti

Casomai le leggi si possono anche cambiare, no?

[Skorpius]

A mio modesto avviso, Skorpius: si spiega che quello che si richiede è illegale, dopodiché si commenta, anche spietatamente, la "sagacia" di chi ha scritto quel brano (mi rifiuto di chiamarlo "comunicato" perché mancano le premesse per considerarlo tale).

non ho detto illegale ma in frode alla legge non è esattamente la stessa cosa.
Però sono convinto che un comunicato di quel genere non possa essere preso sul serio, è una presa in giro ma non solo quello è offensivo per i motivi che, due pagine di post fa, ha evidenziato zaradona: chiede che una gran parte di posti non vengano concessi agli abbonati (nel settore economico) per permettere a questi di fare i loro giochetti.

Casomai le leggi si possono anche cambiare, no?

certamente.. ci sono i mezzi democratici per questo.. l'invito alla disapplicazione non è uno di questi però

[CiPpi]

La "Tessera del Tifoso" vista da oltremanica...

Tessera del tifoso: Italian fans face ID check

by Vanda Wilcox
on Monday, June 15th, 2009 at 3:19 pm

Since the death of police inspector Filippo Raciti in February 2007, the world of Italian football has been in a state of institutional flux. A series of legal measures intended to prevent and punish violence more effectively have also been accompanied by changes in stadium organization and management, but the process is not complete so far as the authorities are concerned. The next step, to be implemented before the start of the 2009-10 season, is the so-called ‘tessera del tifoso’. This is a scheme not wholly dissimilar to Margaret Thatcher’s compulsory fan ID card scheme in the UK in the 1980s, which was finally shelved after Hillsborough and the Taylor Report; here in Italy it is seen by some as the answer to all the problems of calcio.

The tessera del tifoso is the brainchild of the Osservatorio Nazionale sulle Manifestazioni Sportive (ONMS), the department of the Ministry of the Interior which is responsible for security & public order at sports events. The final proposal was approved in April 2008, and is yet to be fully implemented, but current Minister of the Interior and Lega Nord charmer Roberto Maroni is extremely enthusiastic. In fact he is endeavouring to turn what was initially supposed to be a voluntary scheme into a compulsory one, in the belief that this will effectively stamp out football violence. It is due to be imposed not only in Serie A & B but also, potentially, in the Lega Pro 1 & 2 (the old Serie C1 & C2) – where average gates rarely get above 2000.

The main idea is simple: in order to buy match tickets you will need to present your tessera del tifoso, an electronic ID card which contains all your personal details (name, date of birth address, identity document number). It is issued directly by the club, so your Milan card will allow you to buy Milan tickets only, and so on; this way there is no chance that fans of one club can buy tickets for another. To be more precise, it guarantees that away fans can’t circumvent a ban by buying “home” tickets.

Obviously fans with a banning order (DASPO, they are called in Italy) in place won’t be issued with the all important card. The equation is simple, apparently: fans subject to DASPO = violent hooligans, so football + tessera del tifoso = a peaceful paradise. The ONMS website suggests that any DASPO or “stadium-related offence” in the last five years will not be allowed into the scheme, while many other sources have suggested that ANY penal precedents will prevent the issuance of the card. In other words, convictions never expire, meaning that a ban is for life, irrespective of the actual original sentence (banning orders range from 1-5 years, most commonly). If as a hot-headed idiot aged 18 you committed a one-off stadium offence and were unlucky enough to get caught (unlucky in the sense that many people get away with all sorts of offences all the time), then you can forget about taking your kids to a match twenty years later. This may or may not be constitutional.

Apparently, the system should simplify the process of buying tickets and of entering the stadium through the creation of dedicated turnstiles, along with (potentially) the concession of privileges and/or benefits to card holders on the part of participating clubs. It’s also possible that there will be no restrictions applied to the sale of tickets for card holders (i.e. on those occasions when away tickets are not on general sale under ONMS safety measures). Indeed the head of the Lega Pro claims that the tessera “will increase overall attendance figures” since no more matches will have to be played behind closed doors, a fine example of spurious reasoning. The overall aim is apparently ‘to reward virtuous behaviour of fans’ through ‘a process of customer loyalty building through the creation of a new profile for fans, as “representatives” of their Clubs, and a reinforced sense of belonging to a “privileged community” of “official supporters”.’

There are a number of potential practical problems with the scheme: what if you are an occasional fan or if you just happen to fancy going to a game one weekend, do you have to go and apply for a card which can’t be issued til the local police approve it? What if you like to regularly go and watch more than one team? How is the scheme to be effectively administered? The idea is even more impractical at lower levels, since the expense for clubs will be not inconsiderable and the necessary infrastructure (in terms of electronic turnstiles) is often absent.

As a plan to defeat violence, the tessera del tifoso ignores the single most important feature of all contemporary hooliganism: it doesn’t take place inside the ground. Not since the 80s – and maybe even before that – has football violence in Italy taken place primarily inside stadiums. When it happens, it takes place in areas around the ground, around train stations and (above all) at motorway service stations. Stopping hooligans going into the game will do nothing to stop hooliganism for the simple fact that the game is separate from the violence – indeed some of them don’t even try to go to the game at all.

So, it’s impractical and won’t meet its purported objective. It’s also profoundly objectionable in terms of civil rights: what other group of people are collected onto a police index in order to pursue a leisure activity?  Are they going to draw up a police-approved register of people permitted to enter nightclubs? Because, you know, people go and get drunk and fight in and outside nightclubs every weekend?  It’s massively unpopular with ultras across the country and with many ordinary fans as well. Protests have been many and vigorous, and later in the month a major national ultras’ meeting is planned to demonstrate against the plan.

Above all many people are troubled about the language in which the project is couched and the supposed advantages listed above: the scheme ‘follows the logic of customer loyalty schemes’ in the words of the ONMS. It can include a Visa or Maestro feature, it can act as a points-collecting card to earn fans discounts or prizes, it in every way conceives of the fan as primarily a customer to be “fidelizzato” or incentivised to display (financial) loyalty.

This year Milan (curiously supportive as a club of this government initiative) have been running the scheme as a trial: the “Cuore Rossonero” card offers a rechargeable Maestro payment facility, earns you “Star Points” which prove how loyal you are and earn special offers, and also allows you to collect points towards rewards like a tasteful key-ring or, a black and red hand-wash dispenser. If you collect enough points you could earn discounts on tickets, a day at the training ground or even dinner with the team. And points can be collected with specially selected commercial partners, so while you are buying petrol or trainers you are saving up for an exclusive branded cup and saucer set! Be still my beating heart.

It’s pretty easy to see the potentially vast economic incentives for clubs, and equally that the system will be able to effectively penalise those which don’t chose to sign up (if, for instance, only clubs with the tessera are allowed to sell tickets to certain high-risk matches). Meanwhile Hellas fans at a service station were recently assaulted by a group of over 70 hooligans returning from watching…. yes, Milan.  Good to see the fruits of the scheme in action. It’s pretty hard not to be cynical: is this really about public order or an exercise in state control dressed up in crude commercialization? Just what football needs.

articolo nient'affatto d'oltremanica. non fidatevi mai delle apparenze 

[mrmoto]

articolo nient'affatto d'oltremanica. non fidatevi mai delle apparenze 

Infatti, da una veloce ricerca su google risulta che Vanda insegna storia alla John Cabot University di Roma, scrive di calcio e tifa Aesse. L'articolo è gonfio di inesattezze, la più clamorosa delle quali è che bisogna fare la TDT per fare anche solo un semplice biglietto per lo stadio. Questo punto è poi la tesi della sua critica. A me sembra scritto su ordinazione. Ma poi dove sarebbe stato pubblicato?

[mrmoto]

Mi sono divertito a rispondere a Ms Wilcox. E sono stato un pò cattivello, mi perdonerete mai?

"Unfortunately Ms Wilcox’s article is full of inaccuracies. The most blatant of which is that one needs to have a TDT to buy a single match ticket to a Serie A game. TDTs are mandatory only if you wish to purchase a season ticket or buy a ticket in the away section at a football match. This is obviously targetted at cleaning up the Ultras section of the italian football watching masses, and will not affect any Joe Soap who wishes to go and watch a football match. Another error is that someone who has committed a crime will never be able to attend a game. Rubbish. The regulations for the TDT, which can be easily found by anyone, state that the TDT will be refused to anyone who has committed football related offences in the last five years.

Ms Wilcox should either research her articles better, or refuse to ghost write them for her friends in, say, AS Roma Ultras."

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/06/15/tessera-del-tifoso-italian-fans-face-id-check/#comment-26239

[Ataru]

io avrei risposto:

asrm

feel free to find what's "m" for.

[chemist]

Mi sono divertito a rispondere a Ms Wilcox. E sono stato un pò cattivello, mi perdonerete mai?

"Unfortunately Ms Wilcox’s article is full of inaccuracies. The most blatant of which is that one needs to have a TDT to buy a single match ticket to a Serie A game. TDTs are mandatory only if you wish to purchase a season ticket or buy a ticket in the away section at a football match. This is obviously targetted at cleaning up the Ultras section of the italian football watching masses, and will not affect any Joe Soap who wishes to go and watch a football match. Another error is that someone who has committed a crime will never be able to attend a game. Rubbish. The regulations for the TDT, which can be easily found by anyone, state that the TDT will be refused to anyone who has committed football related offences in the last five years.

Ms Wilcox should either research her articles better, or refuse to ghost write them for her friends in, say, AS Roma Ultras."

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/06/15/tessera-del-tifoso-italian-fans-face-id-check/#comment-26239

Direi che é assolutamente una risposta perfetta

[DinoRaggio]

articolo nient'affatto d'oltremanica. non fidatevi mai delle apparenze 

E via con un'altra caterva di frustate...



Che poi, con le spalle abbronzate, non sai che divertimento...

Frustate meritatissime, peraltro. Riportare sul forum della Lazio l'articolo di una tifosa delle cacche... Maro', è già assai che non mi bannano. 

[CiPpi]

emmaro', Dino.

bastava anna' a letto senza carosello 

in ogni caso l'appunto era piu' sullo stile dell'inglese, che mi fa supporre la vanda sia in realta' italiana e abbia imparato l'inglese negli Stati Uniti.

[disabitato]

non ho detto illegale ma in frode alla legge non è esattamente la stessa cosa.
Però sono convinto che un comunicato di quel genere non possa essere preso sul serio, è una presa in giro ma non solo quello è offensivo per i motivi che, due pagine di post fa, ha evidenziato zaradona: chiede che una gran parte di posti non vengano concessi agli abbonati (nel settore economico) per permettere a questi di fare i loro giochetti.

certamente.. ci sono i mezzi democratici per questo.. l'invito alla disapplicazione non è uno di questi però

qualche pagina fa (a me) avevi spiegato esattamente per quale motivo sia frode alla legge. Mi sa che ti conviene ripeterlo...

[ammiraglio]

Mi sono divertito a rispondere a Ms Wilcox. E sono stato un pò cattivello, mi perdonerete mai?

"Unfortunately Ms Wilcox’s article is full of inaccuracies. The most blatant of which is that one needs to have a TDT to buy a single match ticket to a Serie A game. TDTs are mandatory only if you wish to purchase a season ticket or buy a ticket in the away section at a football match. This is obviously targetted at cleaning up the Ultras section of the italian football watching masses, and will not affect any Joe Soap who wishes to go and watch a football match. Another error is that someone who has committed a crime will never be able to attend a game. Rubbish. The regulations for the TDT, which can be easily found by anyone, state that the TDT will be refused to anyone who has committed football related offences in the last five years.

Ms Wilcox should either research her articles better, or refuse to ghost write them for her friends in, say, AS Roma Ultras."

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/06/15/tessera-del-tifoso-italian-fans-face-id-check/#comment-26239

praticamente le hai dato due sberle;-).

[DinoRaggio]

emmaro', Dino.

bastava anna' a letto senza carosello 

in ogni caso l'appunto era piu' sullo stile dell'inglese, che mi fa supporre la vanda sia in realta' italiana e abbia imparato l'inglese negli Stati Uniti.

Aò, non mi togliere carosello!

Grazie per il consiglio, io la Vanda non l'avrei mai sgamata. Mannaggia a lei. M'ha fatto inquinare "Solo Lazio", m'ha fatto.

Applausi per te e mrmoto, grande risposta!

[chinaglia]

Mi sono divertito a rispondere a Ms Wilcox. E sono stato un pò cattivello, mi perdonerete mai?

La signora si è piccata, e niente riferimenti alle merddcce

 Vanda Wilcox
July 18, 2010 • 11:30 am

Hi Paul

obviously this article is from last year, as is clearly stated at the top, but which you perhaps missed? and since this was written a number of alterations have been made to the scheme, I’ve not had time to write an update on the current situation and the article was accurate at the moment it was published. Clarifications and amendments since that date have included clear provisions to ensure that, for instance, tourists won’t have problems getting tickets when they’re over, as well as clarifying situation on the orginal ‘clause 9′ of the TdT regulations.

I’m touched by your idea that looking at the government’s regulations will give you a clear idea of what is being put into practice. If you go and look at the original documents the five-year clause is clear, however if you had read the sample application form issued last year by Minister of the Interior Roberto Maroni you would have seen that it made a blanket reference to ALL offences of whatever date or nature. This error has been officially tidied up now, and as my article above made clear was never part of the original ONMS regulations. Nonetheless this error persists in some club’s documentation eg the Juventus application form requires that you sign a statement saying that you have never received a sentence, making no mention of the 5 year limit: http://www.juventus.com/site/filesite/Juventus_ModuloCartaDelTifoso_9_Merged.pdf).

The idea that the Tessera is an essential requirement for purchase of a season ticket is also a difficult legal question since a) it’s an adminstrative circular from the ministry which does not have the force of a law (ie it’s not been through parliament) and b) the document which links the Tessera to season tickets is one primarily aimed at local police, apparently. Most clubs have adopted the Tessera for new season tickets but some (like Genoa & Samp) are offering their season ticket holders a way to get round the problem.

As to the idea that this doesn’t affect ordinary matchgoing fans, or “Joe Soap” in your words, I’m not so sure about that. Many fans of all backgrounds and types are opposed to the violation of fundamental civil liberties which are entailed in the Tessera and though ultras have been the most vocal campaigners they are by no means alone. Look at the comments from Pietro Lo Monaco or Zamparini (or Fabrizio Miccoli and Daniele De Rossi, for that matter) to see that plenty of people within Serie A also oppose the tessera. Also, do non-ultras never want to go to away games? that seems pretty unlikely to me.

To my lasting regret no-one has ever asked me to ghost-write anything for them but if they do, I’ll be sure to let you know.

[jumpingjackflash]

but which you perhaps missed?

Trad(JJF)

ma che te sei perso??

 

[WombyZoof]

se già non spacciassero la tdt come il toccasana dei mali da stadio, sarebbe un gran passo di onestà.

oppure spiegassero come evitare gli scontri alla farnesina, tanto per dire, che pure quelli non è che incoraggtino la famigliola a venire allo stadio.

 

[NV]

praticamente wandamarchi dice che il pezzo è datato, così come anche la documentazione riguardo la TDT sul sito della juve.
e sticazzi, potevi documentarti meglio, o non scriverlo proprio. ma essendo romoletta tutto si spiega: bla bla bla bla bla bla...

[Matita]

Minchia , abbiamo una "commissione di vigilanza" che fa impallidire il Pentagono.

Bravissimi , avanti cosi'.


Prima la cazzata dell aereo in ritardo , poi questa...troppe ne sono passate e troppe ce ne saranno.

[CiPpi]

Trad(JJF)

ma che te sei perso??

 

'che ti sei perso', nel senso che Paul non ha letto l'articolo quando e' stato inizialmente pubblicato.

...Hi Paul

obviously this article is from last year, as is clearly stated at the top, but which you perhaps missed? ...

ma giusto perche' so come scrivono in inglese gli italiani 

in ogni caso, lassalla perde no, eh?

anche perche' non capisco cosa possa entrarci sia il suo tifo coprologo sia l'articolo sui ritardi dell'Alitalia con quanto scritto nel suo (pessimo senza dubbio) articolo.